Continual Flame Upcasted Vs Magical Darkness
Thread: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness'
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2017-01-13,03:17 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #1
Dwarf in the Playground
'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' Hopefully easy question:
Does 'continual flame' cast using a 3rd level slot count as a "spell of 2nd level or lower"?
I'm wondering for the interaction with the 'darkness' spell.
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2017-01-13,03:23 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #2
Troll in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' Not, it counts as a 3rd-level spell.
Originally Posted by PHB page 201 When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level.
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2017-01-13,03:34 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #3
Barbarian in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' Yes casting continual flame using a 3rd-level slot that assumes it is now a 3rd level. Originally Posted by rudy 
Hopefully easy question:
Does 'continual flame' cast using a 3rd level slot count as a "spell of 2nd level or lower"?
I'm wondering for the interaction with the 'darkness' spell.
I believe if any darkness� area overlaps with an area of light created by a continual flame spell of 3rd level, the continual flame wouldn't not be dispelled but it would still not light the magical darkness.
Last edited by Plaguescarred; 2017-01-13 at 03:36 PM.
Yan
D&D Playtester
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2017-01-13,03:37 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #4
Dwarf in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' Cool Originally Posted by Millstone85 Not, it counts as a 3rd-level spell.
Besides "balance", or GM-rule, why not? The text of darkness says "...nonmagical light can't illuminate it." That does seem to imply, very heavily, that magical light can illuminate it, no? Originally Posted by Plaguescarred I believe if any darkness� area overlaps with an area of light created by a continual flame spell of 3rd level, the continual flame wouldn't not be dispelled but it would still not light the magical darkness.
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2017-01-13,03:41 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #5
Barbarian in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' Some Sage Advice on this http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/feat...september-2015
Can you cast darkness with a higher level slot to end a spell of 3rd level or higher that creates light? No. The darkness spell can dispel only a light-creating spell of 2nd level or lower, no matter what spell slot is used for darkness. Similarly, the daylight spell can dispel only a darkness-creating spell of 3rd level or lower, regardless of the spell slot used.
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2017-01-13,03:48 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #6
Dwarf in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' This only tells me that the continual flame doesn't dispel the darkness spell, which I never thought that it did. Difference between lighting the area and dispelling it, though. Originally Posted by Plaguescarred Some Sage Advice on this http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/feat...september-2015
Can you cast darkness with a higher level slot to end a spell of 3rd level or higher that creates light? No. The darkness spell can dispel only a light-creating spell of 2nd level or lower, no matter what spell slot is used for darkness. Similarly, the daylight spell can dispel only a darkness-creating spell of 3rd level or lower, regardless of the spell slot used.
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2017-01-13,03:53 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #7
Barbarian in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' There is no indication one way or another, i assume letting it illuminate the darkness without dispelling would be fine. Originally Posted by rudy This only tells me that the continual flame doesn't dispel the darkness spell, which I never thought that it did. Difference between lighting the area and dispelling it, though.
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2017-01-13,03:54 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #8
Dwarf in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' That's interesting, though. Because that implies that if, say, someone casts 'darkness' using a 4th level slot, and someone else casts 'daylight', neither one is dispelled. What would happen if they overlap is not well defined, but I would just rule the effects of both are nullified in the area that they overlap. Originally Posted by Plaguescarred Some Sage Advice on this http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/feat...september-2015
Can you cast darkness with a higher level slot to end a spell of 3rd level or higher that creates light? No. The darkness spell can dispel only a light-creating spell of 2nd level or lower, no matter what spell slot is used for darkness. Similarly, the daylight spell can dispel only a darkness-creating spell of 3rd level or lower, regardless of the spell slot used.
Last edited by rudy; 2017-01-13 at 03:54 PM.
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2017-01-13,04:02 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #9
Troll in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' Here is something I draw for a similar thread: Originally Posted by rudy That's interesting, though. Because that implies that if, say, someone casts 'darkness' using a 4th level slot, and someone else casts 'daylight', neither one is dispelled. What would happen if they overlap is not well defined, but I would just rule the effects of both are nullified in the area that they overlap.
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2017-01-13,04:04 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #10
Barbarian in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' I found this tweet from Jeremy Crawford that says the darkness spell can't be made more powerful with a higher level slot - presumably because it has no At Higher Level effect. Originally Posted by rudy That's interesting, though. Because that implies that if, say, someone casts 'darkness' using a 4th level slot, and someone else casts 'daylight', neither one is dispelled. What would happen if they overlap is not well defined, but I would just rule the effects of both are nullified in the area that they overlap.
Perhaps the same apply to continual flame...
@Dan_Dillon Can you cast darkness at a higher level slot to nix a spell such as fire shield?
@JeremyECrawford As written, the darkness spell can't be made more powerful with a higher level slot.https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...12732528873472
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2017-01-13,04:08 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #11
Dwarf in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' Maybe it's not more powerful, but unless they are contradicting the other sage advice, and the rules, then you can cast any spell using a higher level spell slot, and then it becomes a spell of that level. A higher level darkness would certainly not nix a fire shield, or hurt light spells above 2nd level, but it would be resistant to being dispelled by Daylight, by definition of what is written. Originally Posted by Plaguescarred I found this tweet from Jeremy Crawford that says the darkness spell can't be made more powerful with a higher level slot - presumably because it has no At Higher Level effect.
Perhaps the same apply to continual flame...
@Dan_Dillon Can you cast darkness at a higher level slot to nix a spell such as fire shield?
@JeremyECrawford As written, the darkness spell can't be made more powerful with a higher level slot.https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...12732528873472
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2017-01-13,04:09 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #12
Dwarf in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' Neat. Why do you think the Daylight spell over-rides the 4th level darkness spell, necessarily? Originally Posted by Millstone85 Here is something I draw for a similar thread:
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2017-01-13,04:12 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #13
Troll in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' It is as you said. Originally Posted by rudy Neat. Why do you think the Daylight spell over-rides the 4th level darkness spell, necessarily?
Originally Posted by rudy The text of darkness says "...nonmagical light can't illuminate it." That does seem to imply, very heavily, that magical light can illuminate it
Originally Posted by rudy Difference between lighting the area and dispelling it
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2017-01-13,04:17 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #14
Dwarf in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' Ah. Touche', and good point. I think as GM I will just rule that if light/darkness spells don't dispel each other, then they are both nullified in the region that they overlap. Originally Posted by Millstone85 It is as you said.
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2017-01-13,04:35 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #15
Troll in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' So there would be an "oval of ambiant lighting" between the two areas? Like the middle here would be whatever the rest of the room is? Originally Posted by rudy Ah. Touche', and good point. I think as GM I will just rule that if light/darkness spells don't dispel each other, then they are both nullified in the region that they overlap.
Or are we talking about the magic going away in the middle, leaving only the interaction of mundane light with mundane absence of light?Last edited by Millstone85; 2017-01-13 at 04:39 PM.
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2017-01-13,05:05 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #16
Dwarf in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' Essentially the magic goes away in the middle. In most cases I think that would be equivalent to it being whatever the rest of the room is. Essentially I'm imagining both spells working to suppress the other, and getting nowhere, leaving the mundane lighting (if any) to fill in. Originally Posted by Millstone85 So there would be an "oval of ambiant lighting" between the two areas? Like the middle here would be whatever the rest of the room is?
Or are we talking about the magic going away in the middle, leaving only the interaction of mundane light with mundane absence of light?However, I may just go with "lighting wins" if this actually comes up, simply because it's easier.
Last edited by rudy; 2017-01-13 at 05:05 PM.
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2017-01-13,05:13 PM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #17
Barbarian in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' Natural darkness can't smother natural light. Darkness is just the absence of light, not some opposed force.
As such, I would think that magical darkness couldn't override anything that is not specifically called out (natural light and lower level magic light). The magical interaction would be analogous to the natural interaction if the spells don't overpower each other.
... That being said, I think Rudy's ruling is also an excellent solution.
Last edited by Provo; 2017-01-13 at 05:15 PM.
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2017-01-14,11:26 AM (ISO 8601) - Top - End - #18
Troll in the Playground
Re: 'Continual Flame' and 'Darkness' Strictly RAW, Millstone's diagram seems correct. Take it step by step.
1) Darkness cannot be illuminated by non-magical light. The implication is magical like CAN illuminate it just as it illuminates any other darkness.
2) IF the magical light spell is 2nd level or lower, it gets dispelled when they overlap per the text of Darkness, thus preventing that illumination from happening. Casting Darkness at a higher level doesn't change this number. It's still a spell of 2nd level or lower that gets dispelled. Casting the illumination spell at higher than 2nd level will prevent it from being dispelled by Darkness.
3) Any light spell of 3rd level or higher won't be dispelled and thus will (at least) illuminate the darkness, essentially over-riding it.
4) IF it's a Daylight spell, its text specifically says it dispels darkness spells of 3rd level or lower. So not only will it illuminate the darkness regardless, but IF the Darkness spell was cast with a third level or lower slot, it will be dispelled. This doesn't work if you flip it around--see above. A 4th level Darkness spell will be illuminated while they overlap but neither will dispel the other regardless of the slot used for the Daylight spell.
Conclusions:
1) Cast your Continual Flame with a 3rd level slot to ensure it never gets dispelled by Darkness and it will illuminate the Darkness without dispelling it. I suggest you always do that if possible since it's costly and permanent.
2) If you cast Darkness with a 4th level slot, you ensure it from getting dispelled by Daylight, but it will still be illuminated by any light-creating spell that it fails to dispel.Last edited by Dalebert; 2017-01-14 at 11:31 AM.
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Source: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?511989-Continual-Flame-and-Darkness
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